The AFU and Urban Legend Archive
Religion
 hubbard heinlein bet




Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
From: peter@lucey.demon.co.uk (peter lucey)
Subject: FAQ: Hubbard and "Start a Religion for $$$" - info
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 23:36:16 +0000

The AFU FAQ mentions:

"(Tb) L. Ron Hubbard talked about 'the best way to make a million $ is to start a religion'. The alt.religion.scientology FAQ says "NOT!" but I hav'nt been convinced"

The following is the best summary of this claim, posted to alt.religion. scientology by Don Lindsay (a sceptic on a.r.s.).

BTW: the "official" a.r.s. FAQ is maintained by scientologists; take it with a pinch (well, a lorry-load) of salt.

Peter Lucey
RMO S2 (UK) Knights of Xenu (KoX)

From: lindsay@hosed.cs.colorado.edu (Don Lindsay)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: non-scientologist faq on "Start a Religion"
Summary: L. Ron Hubbard is widely rumored to have said

"The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion." L. Ron Hubbard is widely rumored to have said "The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion." There are also variant rumors. For some reason, this is often mentioned on Usenet. The evidence is discussed below, but the short answer is that several reputable people claim to have heard Hubbard say it.

The Church of Scientology has actually taken German publishers to court for printing this story, and the Church won, too. Unfortunately, without details, it's not clear to me what kind of defence the publishers put up, or what German laws and precedents were applicable.

One form of the rumor is that L. Ron Hubbard made a bar bet with Bob Heinlein. This is definitely not true: it's uncharacteristic of Heinlein, and there's no supporting evidence. There is, however, inconclusive evidence that Bob Heinlein suggested some parts of the original "Dianetics".

Another claim is that George Orwell said it first. This is true: in 1938, Orwell wrote "But I have always thought there might be a lot of cash in starting a new religion...". However, he wrote that in a private letter, and I don't know the first publication date. If Hubbard did get the idea from Orwell, that would merely make the "joke" unoriginal.

I found the following in books about Hubbard and Scientology:

"Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion."
-- reporter Neison Himmel: quoted in "Bare Faced Messiah"** p.117 from 1986 interview. Himmel shared a room with LRH, briefly, Pasadena, fall 1945.

"I always knew he was exceedingly anxious to hit big money - he used to say he thought the best way to do it would be to start a cult." -- Sam Merwin, then the editor of the "Thrilling" group of magazines: quoted in "Bare Faced Messiah" p.133 from 1986 interview. Winter of 1946/47.

"Around this time he was invited to address a science fiction group in Newark hosted by the writer, Sam Moskowitz. `Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous,' he told the meeting. `If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion.'
-- "Bare Faced Messiah" p.148. Reference given to LA Times, 27 Aug 78. Supposed to have happened in spring 1949.

"Science fiction editor and author Sam Moscowitz tells of the occasion when Hubbard spoke before the Eastern Science Fiction Association in Newark, New Jersey in 1947:
`Hubbard spoke ... I don't recall his exact words; but in effect, he told us that writing science fiction for about a penny a word was no way to make a living. If you really want to make a million, he said, the quickest way is to start your own religion.'" -- "Messiah or Madman"**, p.45. No reference given. Yes, the spelling of Sam's name differs: this book got it wrong, it has a "k". I don't know why the two books disagree by two years.

The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction lists Sam Moskowitz as the first good historian of science fiction [among other things].

Now, there is a problem with the Moskowitz reports. Specifically, a scientologist (Brian Wenger, wengerb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu) has sent me copies of 1993 affadavits by David A. Kyle and Jay Kay Klein. Both names are well-known in science fiction, and both say that they went to a talk by Hubbard, in Newark, on 7 November 1948. Both say that Hubbard made no such statement at that meeting. Hmm. At a guess, I would say that the LA Times and Mr. Corydon both got a confused story, but since Moskowitz is now dead, the point isn't easily resolved. One possibility is that Moskowitz himself got it wrong: his written works were notable for their mistaken dates, confusion of fact and opinion, and the like. He is remembered as a fine man, but a poor researcher.

On 9apr94, jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu (Mike Jittlov) posted:

<about a conversation with Theodore Sturgeon> >Back in the 1940's, L. Ron Hubbard was a member of the Los Angeles
>Science Fantasy Society (when its old clubhouse was just north of
>Wilshire Blvd). Ted vividly recalled being a few yards from Hubbard,
>when he became testy with someone there and retorted, "Y'know, we're
>all wasting our time writing this hack science fiction! You wanta
>make _real_ money, you gotta start a _religion_!
>
>Though I didn't ask, I think Ted would've mentioned it if the second
>person was Heinlein or another author of note. He had an extremely
>accurate memory, and I'd trust Sturgeon over anyone else's account.

Theodore Sturgeon was one of the truly great science fiction writers, and someone whose word and memories were trusted. (John W. Campbell commented that Sturgeon should have written the definitive history of SF fandom.) Mike Jittlov is a respected Hollywood filmmaker and stopmotion actor, and can be found on the net at "alt.fan.mike-jittlov".

Lloyd Arthur Eshbach was a science fiction writer and publisher between 1929 and 1957. His autobiography, "Over My Shoulder: Reflections on a Science Fiction Era" ( Oswald Train: Publisher, Phila. 1983, limited edition) says on pages 125 and 126 (about the events of 1948 and 1949): 

        I think of the time while in New York I took John W. Campbell 
        Marty Greenberg, and L. Ron Hubbard to lunch.  Someone suggested
        a Swedish smorgasbord, and I had my first--and last--taste of 
        kidney.  Yuck!  Afterward we wound up in my hotel room for
        related conversation.

        The incident is stamped indelibly in my mind because of one 
        statement that Ron Hubbard made.  What led him to say what he
        did I can't recall--but in so many words Hubbard said:

        "I'd like to start a religion.  That's where the money is!"

Eshbach based his autobiography on detailed records and dated diary entries, and is therefore likely to be quite accurate on this point.

To summarize: one the one hand, the Church has won lawsuits about this, details unknown. On the other hand, we have five witnesses: Neison Himmel, Sam Merwin, Sam Moskowitz, Theodore Sturgeon, and Lloyd Arthur Eshbach. There is some confusion and doubt about one of the five (Sam Moskowitz): two others are reported via Russel Miller: one is reported via Mike Jittlov: one reported in his own book. All five witnesses seem to be reporting about different instances.

Conclusion: I really don't see how they could all be wrong.

--------------------------< END >--------------------------------- --
Don D.C.Lindsay University of Colorado-Boulder Computer Science


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